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#76 DH1 ONLINE  

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Posted October 24, 2010 - 02:12 PM

Well this is quite the discussion and that's why I ask questions to get other peoples input.
I believe and I might be wrong here but the difference in the 200, 300amp controllers is the number of Mosfets in the units, more Mosfets, less internal resistance, more current output and less heat. The 200 probably just won't deliver 225 amps because of this, where the 300 will but only for a short period of time till heat builds up and the unit cuts itself back on current output.
I can't see how I'm going to need 100amps plus for long periods of time, I know of 2 different guys who both have GT running 600watt motors, 40amp controllers at 24volts. One fellow says it's the minimum power needed as he can pull anything in 1st low and loose traction before he stalls the motor but not be able to drive around on a level grass in 3rd high(top gear for him).
Don't get me wrong here I want to here other peoples thoughts on this and if it turns out the 200 is N/G for the Electric Massey it can always go in my Sears ET.
This won't be the last vehicle I convert.

Ducky where are you!

#77 MH81 ONLINE  

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Posted October 24, 2010 - 04:13 PM

I will start this post with this: I know nothing about motor controllers, DC drives, etc. That having been said, I do have a basic understanding of electronics & DC circuits.

Way back in school, we designed custom circuits around the 70% rule. Assume that 70% of max capacity is the max & everything will last longer & work better. As a rule, the cooler running the circuitry, the better the efficiency of the circuit, the longer it's assumed lifespan. Also, a breaker / fuse / etc could save you lots of $ if for no other reason than manufacturers defects. We have seen a 15% failure rate on new replacement control board parts in the appliance industry over the last 4-5 years.

As for load-vs-supply... Any component in a system can be the weak link. Some are intentional (fuses, breakers, etc) and some aren't. We used to kid about "L.E.R" 's in school (light-emitting resistors). Any controller should list a peak forward (surge) current in it's specs and also a max sustainable (operating) current. The motor may/should (see 1st statement) also have this information. Of course, motor current required will depend upon it's load.

If these controllers are smart enough to current-limit and (I assume using some sort of feedback loop) actively regulate, then that is out of my depth but in the interest of longevity, I would try to be very attentive to the #'s. Especially if I'm buying & my fanny's sitting on it.

I would also probably work under the 70% rule as that seems to allow me to be wrong about 30% of the time.

Knowing myself, I probably should work under the 50% rule tho...

#78 harrycu OFFLINE  

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Posted October 28, 2010 - 12:18 PM

Maybe I"m wrong but I get a sense that you don't quite understand how all of this works.

Let me put it this way. Let's say that you have a two-story high front entrance hall in your home and the existing light fixture has a single 60 watt light bulb in it and that bulb is controlled by a switch on the wall. Your wife wants something more dramatic so she goes over to a lighting retailer and comes home with a huge chandelier that is loaded with 60 watt candelabra style lamps. You install this fixture for her and flip on the light switch to show her what it looks like, all lit up. However, smoke starts coming out of the switch and suddenly the chandelier goes out.

At the outset, you had one 60 watt lamp but then you installed this chandelier with forty 60 watt lamps. The chandelier is the same as your drive motor and the switch is the same as the controller. The switch is only rated to handle 15 amps but the chandelier is drawing 2400 watts which works out to 20 amps. Since the switch in the house isn't rated to handle 20 amps, it just burnt out.

Neither the switch nor your motor controller deliver amps to the chandelier or the motor. All they do is control the amperage that the chandelier or the motor DRAW. Chandeliers and motors are called the "LOAD" in electrical terms. Motors have several "LOAD RATINGS" because when they are first asked to start rotating, there is a thing called "Inrush current" that can be as much as 10 times the amount of current the motor will draw once it is up to rated RPM. This inrush current happens only for a brief instant in most cases but when you see a light in your house flicker for part of a second, you are observing that high current draw.

The point is this. The larger motor controller cannot "push the motor" any harder than the smaller one can. The motor will simply draw whatever amount of current it is rated to draw unless it is prevented from rotating. Should that happen, then the amperage draw would soar to the point where one of two things would happen. If the motor is properly fused, then the high current draw would be interrupted by the fuse blowing or a circuit breaker popping open. If no such protection were installed in the circuit, then the motor's windings would rapidly overheat causing the insulation on the windings to fail to the point where they would short out and then burn out. A small fire inside the motor may occur as well which could spread if other combustible items were nearby.

So getting back to the example presented; you could remove the old 15 amp rated light switch and replace it with a switch rated at 20 amps but that would mean that the switch was marginal because the chandelier was drawing all of the amperage that switch was capable of handling. Instead, you would be wiser to install a switch that is rated for 25 or 30 amps so that it would have no problems handling a 20 amp load on a regular basis for years to come. Using a 25 or 30 amp switch does not mean that you would be now delivering 25 or 30 amps to the chandelier. That's not how things work. The chandelier will draw whatever amount of amps it needs and no more. If you removed the forty 60 watt lamps and installed 40 25 watt lamps, then the chandelier would only draw 1000 watts or 8.33 amps and you could just replace the old 15 amp rated light switch with another 15 amp rated light switch because the load was now a bit more than half the rating of the switch.

No matter which controller you end up using, the motor must be protected in some way because by the time you realize something is wrong, it will be too late to save the motor. You will have cooked the windings already.

Most likely, either controller will work just fine and since Ducky has far more expertise in this area than I do, I bow to his suggestions. However, for the 15 buck difference, I would have gone with the heavier duty controller unless Ducky tells me that would be a mistake and explains why.


Yeah, what he said.

Harry

#79 DH1 ONLINE  

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Posted October 31, 2010 - 01:38 PM

Mounted the battery's and temporally tied them down for testing. Set it up so I could run at 12, 24 or 36volts through a contractor.
At 12 volts it moves and that's about it.
At 24 volts you can drive around but not much power in 4th gear.
At 36 volts seems to have enough, more top speed than the gas version, belt slips from a stand still start in 4th gear.
Steering arm came off at the box so something else to fix but found out that it works.

Pictures show what I did, move the big red clamp to select different voltages, ground the small orange clamp to turn on the contractor.

Reds going Green

Attached Thumbnails

  • electric massey 030.jpg
  • electric massey 031.jpg
  • electric massey 029.jpg
  • electric massey 32.jpg


#80 NUTNDUN OFFLINE  

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Posted October 31, 2010 - 01:59 PM

You are doing a great job on the project Doug. Sounds like 36 volts is the way to go. I think it would be hard to not let the belts slip in 4th from a standstill. Do you think you will be able to get some more tension on the belt? Once you get her done maybe we can see about putting an article together on it.

#81 mjodrey OFFLINE  

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Posted October 31, 2010 - 02:12 PM

WOW ! She's looking good Doug.:thumbs:

#82 DH1 ONLINE  

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Posted October 31, 2010 - 02:15 PM

Right now it's full power on instantly, when I get the controller in it will be better, can bring the power up gradually like driving a car unless you mash your foot to the floor.
Need to get all the wires done right proper gauge and length plus put some fuses and disconnects in, but today was just to see if it will work and it looks promising. This thing is so quiet.
I might try gearing it down a bit more since it has more speed than the gas version but I'll wait till I get the controller in and some meters on it. Be nice to see how many amps it's drawing. For now it's try to finish everything up when I have time.
Never did an article on anything before, how you do that? Might be best to wait till it's done.

#83 DH1 ONLINE  

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Posted October 31, 2010 - 06:05 PM

I've done a lot of searching for EV parts and for those interested IMO this the best motor to get from what I've being able to find.

http://www.cloudelec...p/mo-me1004.htm

It has a 1" shaft, turns aprox. 3600RPM at 48 volts, (no load)
12.9hp, 200amp continuous rating
25.8hp, 400amp 1 minute peak rating
Needs no controller, just a fuse and a contactor and 48volt battery pack. $549.00,

the one I have cost $465.00 new and only has a 2hp continuous rating.

Was made for Lawn Tractor conversions

Edited by DH1, October 31, 2010 - 06:19 PM.
correction


#84 ducky ONLINE  

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Posted October 31, 2010 - 07:22 PM

I've done a lot of searching for EV parts and for those interested IMO this the best motor to get from what I've being able to find.

Motor Mars ME1004 Permanent Magnet DC Pancake Brushed Double Magnet 200A cont

It has a 1" shaft, turns aprox. 3600RPM at 48 volts, (no load)
12.9hp, 200amp continuous rating
25.8hp, 400amp 1 minute peak rating
Needs no controller, just a fuse and a contactor and 48volt battery pack. $549.00,

the one I have cost $465.00 new and only has a 2hp continuous rating.

Was made for Lawn Tractor conversions

Sorry I have been away from this post for awhile.
I have been able to find a GE EV 100 drive system. One is a traction controller and the other is the hydraulic controller out of the same truck.
With a 5000 ohm Pot the traction controller is infinitely variable. Very simple circuit to set up. Will run on either 36/48 volt. Motor will tend to turn just a bit slower on 36
The hydraulic panel uses a different control card and and it work off a switch signal to tell it what speed to turn the motor. There are 4 speed and they are adjustable to user needs.
You have something there that looks like it will work fine if you have the motor running and drive it like an ICE motor. This would tend to use energy when it is not required during stops same as an ICE running and Idling.
If you would be into either of these panels they are your for the shipping.
Getting these things north of the border may be a challenge. Ant ideas??
I could try to meet you on either side of Soo St Maria. I'll have to get a passport to come to your side in order to get back. Do I what to come back???????
What Think?

#85 DH1 ONLINE  

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Posted October 31, 2010 - 07:51 PM

Sorry I have been away from this post for awhile.
I have been able to find a GE EV 100 drive system. One is a traction controller and the other is the hydraulic controller out of the same truck.
With a 5000 ohm Pot the traction controller is infinitely variable. Very simple circuit to set up. Will run on either 36/48 volt. Motor will tend to turn just a bit slower on 36
The hydraulic panel uses a different control card and and it work off a switch signal to tell it what speed to turn the motor. There are 4 speed and they are adjustable to user needs.
You have something there that looks like it will work fine if you have the motor running and drive it like an ICE motor. This would tend to use energy when it is not required during stops same as an ICE running and Idling.
If you would be into either of these panels they are your for the shipping.
Getting these things north of the border may be a challenge. Ant ideas??
I could try to meet you on either side of Soo St Maria. I'll have to get a passport to come to your side in order to get back. Do I what to come back???????
What Think?


No problem we all got other stuff to do besides this place.
I ordered a 200amp controller with a foot operated pot box.
Also I have a culb car controller being given to me from a member of MTF it's on it's way here now.

The controller for the traction would be the one to go for, I think maybe we should wait and see what I get from these other 2 save you the trouble of shipping and thanks for the effort hang on to it I might want it in the near future.
As for shipping when I ship something they ask for a value, when it comes across the border I pay $5. handling + HST (tax) as far as I know.
How much is shipping??? Will worry about that when the time comes.

The Motor I speak of above is the one to go for though, wether you use it to drive the blades or not it turns so many rpm per volt, 3600rpm at 48 volts and as you put a load on it it trys to maintain the RPM like cruse control in a car, 200 amp continuous draw the problem is going to be battery power with that motor.


Did I tell you that Red is going Green

#86 DH1 ONLINE  

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Posted November 14, 2010 - 11:39 AM

Tell me what you think guys is it better to have the charger on the tractor or not?

Reason I ask is most of the commercially made GTs have built in chargers where forklifts and golf carts are not.

#87 NUTNDUN OFFLINE  

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Posted November 14, 2010 - 11:41 AM

Tell me what you think guys is it better to have the charger on the tractor or not?

Reason I ask is most of the commercially made GTs have built in chargers where forklifts and golf carts are not.


I think it would be cool to have the charger integrated into the tractor, and also a self retracting cord. That way when you are done using it the cord is right there, pull it out and plug it in :D

#88 ducky ONLINE  

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Posted November 14, 2010 - 12:46 PM

If you are tight on room you could keep it off board and use an Anderson or similar connector. That way you would not be able to drive the tractor when the charger is plugged in. This can damage a controller due the the high voltage the charger puts out during the charge cycle.
We have some small hand truck that use an on board charge with a circuit that disables the truck any time the charger is plugged into AC. That on has the charger wired into the system at all times instead of unplugging the battery and have to plug it into the charger.

Another though would be safety. If something was to go really wrong, let's say the B- were to get shorted to B + across the motor you could have a runaway. All ANSI mandates that all forklifts have a battery disconnect with in reach of the operator. This can be an Anderson connector with a handle on it or a manual disconnect switch immediately after the battery.

Edited by ducky, November 14, 2010 - 08:13 PM.


#89 DH1 ONLINE  

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Posted November 16, 2010 - 07:13 PM

Came home today and found a notice on the door, controller has arrived, hope to get it tomorrow.

#90 MH81 ONLINE  

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Posted November 16, 2010 - 07:14 PM

Came home today and found a notice on the door, controller has arrived, hope to get it tomorrow.


Hope you can sleep tonight. :D




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