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#61 DH1 OFFLINE  

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Posted September 13, 2010 - 08:33 PM

I'm learning as I go here I know some stuff but not alot about electric motors. I thought that regen. braking needed motors made for that, they have an extra set of windings in them or is that just another way of getting regen. braking?

#62 ducky ONLINE  

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Posted September 13, 2010 - 09:20 PM

I'm learning as I go here I know some stuff but not alot about electric motors. I thought that regen. braking needed motors made for that, they have an extra set of windings in them or is that just another way of getting regen. braking?


Regenerative Braking involves opening a contact that will allow the current generated by the motor being turned by the traction wheels to be sent back to the battery though the D7 diode and stored for late use. This is more of a sales thing in the fork lift industry than actually conserving battery life. IMHO it is a lot easier on motor brushes than was the plugging method used on the early traction control system for slowing lift trucks or any other unit for that matter.
We now have it so well refined that we can turn on regen when the accel. pedal is released and can control the amount of regen in relation to the pedal position.
= No need for the brake pedal except in an emergency. Imagine driving your car and not having to use the brake pedal and all that energy used to burn up the brakes can be stored for later use.
I think we will see Regenerative Braking used quite effectively in the automotive industry. Here you can actually generate a current return back to the battery in stead of using up your brakes. Very benifical in long down hill situations.
  • Titus said thank you

#63 DH1 OFFLINE  

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Posted September 15, 2010 - 10:42 PM

Got a new pulley mounted on the motor, new idler pulley on the modified tensioner with a new belt and it all lines up and looks good.
Figured out battery placement under the hood where the gas engine was and all 3 battery's fit without cutting or modifying the hood or grill. Need to make some brackets and hold downs so battery's stay put.
I can have all the factory sheet metal on as it was when new.

Reds going Green

#64 Bolens 1000 ONLINE  

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Posted September 16, 2010 - 06:39 AM

That's good to hear that you were able to get the battery's in without having to cut the hood.

#65 DH1 OFFLINE  

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Posted September 23, 2010 - 08:03 PM

The guy in Toronto that I found who builds and sells controllers wants $485.+ pot box +tax, too much for me for this project.
Spoke to the forklift mechanic at work, he's there at least once every 2 days, he's going to see what he can come up with, seems to know what I need and what he can get. Says all the used ones he comes across are burned up or spoken for.
Any way going to carry on and work around the controller issue, plan on spending some time on it this weekend see how much I can get done.

#66 DH1 OFFLINE  

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Posted September 29, 2010 - 08:35 PM

Not much to report, set up an electrolysis tank the other day and am using it to get the sheet metal ready for the tractor.

#67 DH1 OFFLINE  

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Posted October 17, 2010 - 04:54 PM

Worked on it today and was able to get the battery mounts sorted out and made.
Cut off the fuel tank bracket and original battery tray to make way for the new mounts, all that's left to do is make some hold downs.
More pictures with hood and grill in place.

Reds going Green

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#68 ducky ONLINE  

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Posted October 17, 2010 - 05:40 PM

Hi Doug
Looks like your electrolysis Tank is working very well.
Thx again to Daniel for the info on this process.

#69 DH1 OFFLINE  

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Posted October 17, 2010 - 07:18 PM

Hi Doug
Looks like your electrolysis Tank is working very well.
Thx again to Daniel for the info on this process.


Yes I'd have to say the same.

#70 harrycu OFFLINE  

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Posted October 20, 2010 - 02:56 PM

How does Red Green come into this.
I see Duck Tape coming into this equation.:beerchug:
That means beer will also come into the mix here in Wisconsin:D:D:D:D:D


Only 2 things required in a red neck's tool box: duct tape and wd-40. If it moves and it shouldn't use duct tape. If it doesn't move and it should...use wd-40.

#71 DH1 OFFLINE  

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Posted October 20, 2010 - 06:15 PM

Have been searching and was recommended this particular controller. $140.
Controller Kelly 24- 36 Volt 200 Amp Series or PM

Also found this one from the same supplier. $155.
Controller Kelly 24- 36 Volt 300 Amp Series or PM

This supplier also sells the motor that I have.
Motor ADC (AMD - Advanced Motors & Drives) 5.58" #140-07-4001 24-36VDC 2HP Single Shaft

These controllers need a pot box to run 0-5k $85.up

So my question is which controller would be better for what I want?
Is it better to have a controller that put's out more or less amps than the motor can draw?
Ducky, Anybody???

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Posted October 22, 2010 - 08:02 PM

Well today I ordered the 200amp controller with a foot pedal potbox for this project, controller has a continuous output higher than the motor is rated for but a lower peak output than the motors peak rating. I think this is the closest match and the price is less than I thought I would have to pay. Will see how long it takes to get here.

#73 hydriv OFFLINE  

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Posted October 22, 2010 - 09:26 PM

Have been searching and was recommended this particular controller. $140.
Controller Kelly 24- 36 Volt 200 Amp Series or PM

Also found this one from the same supplier. $155.
Controller Kelly 24- 36 Volt 300 Amp Series or PM

This supplier also sells the motor that I have.
Motor ADC (AMD - Advanced Motors & Drives) 5.58" #140-07-4001 24-36VDC 2HP Single Shaft

These controllers need a pot box to run 0-5k $85.up

So my question is which controller would be better for what I want?
Is it better to have a controller that put's out more or less amps than the motor can draw?
Ducky, Anybody???




To me, the question boils down to the motor you intend to control. Suppose you get on the tractor, turn on the key and then push the throttle control to the floor and hold it there until the tractor attains max speed. How long would it take time-wise for the tractor to reach max speed and what would be the max current draw during that period? If the motor never comes close to drawing 200 amps during the first 60 seconds of acceleration, then the 200 amp controller is fine.

Suppose you decide to use this tractor in pulling contests. There's a large difference in the amount of load on the motor during a pull compared to just accelerating from a dead stop to full speed. The question once again is how much current will this motor draw during the first minute while it is attempting to pull the sled down the track? If the motor is asking for 225 amps during this period, then the 200 amp controller will burn out on you because it cannot handle the load of the motor.

This is not about the controller "putting out" a certain amperage because motor controllers essentially don't put out anything. Instead, they simple "handle" a certain amount of amps safely. You have to size the controller to the size of your motor's peak demands. Having a large safety margin in the controller is one way of ensuring a longer life from the controller because a 300 amp unit isn't working very hard if it is put into a situation that a 200 amp controller could handle with no ill effects.

It's similar to you using your tri-axe to deliver a ton of screenings to a customer compared to that same customer coming to the yard with his 3/4 ton pickup truck for the same load. He will be riding on the rubber snubbers all the way home whereas your truck won't even know that it has that ton of material sitting in a bag on the deck.

#74 DH1 OFFLINE  

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Posted October 23, 2010 - 08:42 PM

To me, the question boils down to the motor you intend to control. Suppose you get on the tractor, turn on the key and then push the throttle control to the floor and hold it there until the tractor attains max speed. How long would it take time-wise for the tractor to reach max speed and what would be the max current draw during that period? If the motor never comes close to drawing 200 amps during the first 60 seconds of acceleration, then the 200 amp controller is fine.

Suppose you decide to use this tractor in pulling contests. There's a large difference in the amount of load on the motor during a pull compared to just accelerating from a dead stop to full speed. The question once again is how much current will this motor draw during the first minute while it is attempting to pull the sled down the track? If the motor is asking for 225 amps during this period, then the 200 amp controller will burn out on you because it cannot handle the load of the motor.

This is not about the controller "putting out" a certain amperage because motor controllers essentially don't put out anything. Instead, they simple "handle" a certain amount of amps safely. You have to size the controller to the size of your motor's peak demands. Having a large safety margin in the controller is one way of ensuring a longer life from the controller because a 300 amp unit isn't working very hard if it is put into a situation that a 200 amp controller could handle with no ill effects.


You raise some good points, I ordered the 200amp controller, it was recommended as a suitable unit by a fellow who has done a conversion and had the time to do some testing under different conditions and loads. - Migraine Man's 1967 Sears Suburban 12-

As far as the controller burning out if asked to deliver more current than it can, the specs. say it is thermally protected and when gets to hot cuts back on the current delivered to protect it self. How effective this is???
The main thing I based my decision on was the continuous amp rating of both the motor and controller.

Motor- cont. 45amp- 1hr 60amp- intermittent 275amp peak
Controller- cont. 80amp- 1 minute 200amp (200amp controller)
Controller- cont. 120amp- 1 minute 300amp (300amp controller)

Both these controllers can deliver more continuous current than the motor is rated for.
There is only $15. difference in cost so $ is not an issue.
I just figured that the 200 would be a little easier on the motor than the 300.

If I was building a pulling tractor then yes 300 is the one to get, or just a high power contractor and come straight off the batt., contractor, to the motor. Max power rules hear. But for what I want a I don't think I need that much power.

I built this- http://www.gttalk.co...n-electric-542/ - in top gear it has enough power to drive around on grass, climb hills without giving you the feeling that it's underpowered. In low power it draws 40-45amps, in high power about 60amps, from a dead stop in top gear, high power, going uphill about 80amps. I don't think the motor on this can draw more than 80amps, the amp meter I have on it is not the most accurate meter around, but it gives a good indication. This is at 24 volts, a 36 volt system will have 50% more power for the same current draw, so for the same power level (watts) the amps will drop 50%. VoltsXAmps=watts

Wether the 200 or 300 is the best for my use??? I think either one will work 300 will give more total power, 200 won't push the motor as hard.

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Posted October 24, 2010 - 12:14 PM

Maybe I"m wrong but I get a sense that you don't quite understand how all of this works.

Let me put it this way. Let's say that you have a two-story high front entrance hall in your home and the existing light fixture has a single 60 watt light bulb in it and that bulb is controlled by a switch on the wall. Your wife wants something more dramatic so she goes over to a lighting retailer and comes home with a huge chandelier that is loaded with 60 watt candelabra style lamps. You install this fixture for her and flip on the light switch to show her what it looks like, all lit up. However, smoke starts coming out of the switch and suddenly the chandelier goes out.

At the outset, you had one 60 watt lamp but then you installed this chandelier with forty 60 watt lamps. The chandelier is the same as your drive motor and the switch is the same as the controller. The switch is only rated to handle 15 amps but the chandelier is drawing 2400 watts which works out to 20 amps. Since the switch in the house isn't rated to handle 20 amps, it just burnt out.

Neither the switch nor your motor controller deliver amps to the chandelier or the motor. All they do is control the amperage that the chandelier or the motor DRAW. Chandeliers and motors are called the "LOAD" in electrical terms. Motors have several "LOAD RATINGS" because when they are first asked to start rotating, there is a thing called "Inrush current" that can be as much as 10 times the amount of current the motor will draw once it is up to rated RPM. This inrush current happens only for a brief instant in most cases but when you see a light in your house flicker for part of a second, you are observing that high current draw.

The point is this. The larger motor controller cannot "push the motor" any harder than the smaller one can. The motor will simply draw whatever amount of current it is rated to draw unless it is prevented from rotating. Should that happen, then the amperage draw would soar to the point where one of two things would happen. If the motor is properly fused, then the high current draw would be interrupted by the fuse blowing or a circuit breaker popping open. If no such protection were installed in the circuit, then the motor's windings would rapidly overheat causing the insulation on the windings to fail to the point where they would short out and then burn out. A small fire inside the motor may occur as well which could spread if other combustible items were nearby.

So getting back to the example presented; you could remove the old 15 amp rated light switch and replace it with a switch rated at 20 amps but that would mean that the switch was marginal because the chandelier was drawing all of the amperage that switch was capable of handling. Instead, you would be wiser to install a switch that is rated for 25 or 30 amps so that it would have no problems handling a 20 amp load on a regular basis for years to come. Using a 25 or 30 amp switch does not mean that you would be now delivering 25 or 30 amps to the chandelier. That's not how things work. The chandelier will draw whatever amount of amps it needs and no more. If you removed the forty 60 watt lamps and installed 40 25 watt lamps, then the chandelier would only draw 1000 watts or 8.33 amps and you could just replace the old 15 amp rated light switch with another 15 amp rated light switch because the load was now a bit more than half the rating of the switch.

No matter which controller you end up using, the motor must be protected in some way because by the time you realize something is wrong, it will be too late to save the motor. You will have cooked the windings already.

Most likely, either controller will work just fine and since Ducky has far more expertise in this area than I do, I bow to his suggestions. However, for the 15 buck difference, I would have gone with the heavier duty controller unless Ducky tells me that would be a mistake and explains why.




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