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Loader Thoughts And Feedback Requested


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#31 Cvans ONLINE  

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Posted March 28, 2012 - 03:27 PM

I'm running automatic transmission fluid in my Johnson loader. I have never heard of using anything but HY-Tran oil or Automatic trans. fluid in a hydro. so I will be watching for answers on this one.
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#32 markdombroski OFFLINE  

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Posted March 28, 2012 - 03:58 PM

I'm running automatic transmission fluid in my Johnson loader. I have never heard of using anything but HY-Tran oil or Automatic trans. fluid in a hydro. so I will be watching for answers on this one.


Thanks Chris, thanks for your feedback.

- Mark

#33 cp7 OFFLINE  

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Posted March 28, 2012 - 05:57 PM

Yes the Case system needs motor oil. It is not a hydrostatic system it's hydraulic.
I'm not the hydraulic guy but what I get out of it is that the hydraulic motor for the trans is what needs the thicker oil. The pump and rest of the system will flow what ever you put in it but the travel performance will suffer on anything but the oil that is called for.
The motor oil should work just fine in the loader system like it does in the Case 600 series.

Here is a link to the write up about the foot operated travel modification.
http://data-cut.com/casefc.htm
Here's the write up on his whole tractor build.
http://data-cut.com/case448.htm
Very good stuff in there.

#34 Cvans ONLINE  

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Posted March 28, 2012 - 07:06 PM

Yes the Case system needs motor oil

There you go. Straight from the horses mouth. Must be right as the two of you have the same opinion and I have no experience with Case. It's not for wanting, just that they are as scarce as hens teeth around here. I would have to agree that I can't think of anything in the loader cylinders or valves that the motor oil would hurt. If you live in a cold climate that oil is going to get pretty thick and slow in the winter unless you can use synthetic.

#35 TUDOR OFFLINE  

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Posted March 28, 2012 - 09:26 PM

Yes the Case system needs motor oil. It is not a hydrostatic system it's hydraulic.
I'm not the hydraulic guy but what I get out of it is that the hydraulic motor for the trans is what needs the thicker oil. The pump and rest of the system will flow what ever you put in it but the travel performance will suffer on anything but the oil that is called for.
The motor oil should work just fine in the loader system like it does in the Case 600 series.


The hydrostatic system is a hydraulic system the same as the Case Hydrive. The difference is the type of pump and motor used and the method of control.

Hydros use variable displacement piston pumps and (usually) piston motors, each of which is 90% efficient. Hydrive uses a travel valve, where the flow rate to the motor is controlled, and gear pumps and motors, each of which is 75 - 80% efficient. Most of the efficiency losses are the result of the necessary clearances between internal rotating or sliding parts with high pressure on one side and low or negative pressure on the other side of the clearance. The overall drive system efficiencies are 81% for the hydros and 56 - 64% for the Hydrive.

The big advantage of the hydro, after the efficiency thing, is the very fine flow control offered by the swash plate in the pump as compared to the somewhat coarser control offered by the travel valve. The Hydrive's advantage is full hydraulic flow all the time allowing implements to be driven by the same pump that feeds the drive motor, an option not available to the hydro. Piston pumps and motors are considerably more costly to produce, and purchase, than gear pumps and motors of similar displacement.

Due to the clearances involved, gear pumps and motors generally function better with heavier oils than what a hydro requires. They will both work very well with motor oil, but a hydro will protest anything heavier than ATF in very cold (-30* F) temps until the oil is warmed up, and the only way to warm it up, short of an external heat source, is to make it work since it doesn't move oil otherwise, unless there is a hi/lo range gear box involved, neutral is selected, and the drive control is advanced. The Hydrive recirculates it's oil from start-up and the warming period is less stressfull. It just moans and groans when you wake it up on a cold morning whereas a hydro with heavy oil combined with tight clearances can break drivelines when forced to work in order to warm up in very cold temps.
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#36 Cvans ONLINE  

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Posted March 29, 2012 - 08:45 AM

Thanks for the information Bob. That was interesting and this old man learned something new again today. :thumbs:
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#37 Michiganmobileman OFFLINE  

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Posted March 29, 2012 - 07:50 PM

Thanks for the information Bob. That was interesting and this old man learned something new again today. :thumbs:

:ditto: Thanks Bob!! :thumbs:
Interesting thread, great information!
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#38 markdombroski OFFLINE  

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Posted March 31, 2012 - 10:14 AM

The hydrostatic system is a hydraulic system the same as the Case Hydrive. The difference is the type of pump and motor used and the method of control.

Hydros use variable displacement piston pumps and (usually) piston motors, each of which is 90% efficient. Hydrive uses a travel valve, where the flow rate to the motor is controlled, and gear pumps and motors, each of which is 75 - 80% efficient. Most of the efficiency losses are the result of the necessary clearances between internal rotating or sliding parts with high pressure on one side and low or negative pressure on the other side of the clearance. The overall drive system efficiencies are 81% for the hydros and 56 - 64% for the Hydrive.

The big advantage of the hydro, after the efficiency thing, is the very fine flow control offered by the swash plate in the pump as compared to the somewhat coarser control offered by the travel valve. The Hydrive's advantage is full hydraulic flow all the time allowing implements to be driven by the same pump that feeds the drive motor, an option not available to the hydro. Piston pumps and motors are considerably more costly to produce, and purchase, than gear pumps and motors of similar displacement.

Due to the clearances involved, gear pumps and motors generally function better with heavier oils than what a hydro requires. They will both work very well with motor oil, but a hydro will protest anything heavier than ATF in very cold (-30* F) temps until the oil is warmed up, and the only way to warm it up, short of an external heat source, is to make it work since it doesn't move oil otherwise, unless there is a hi/lo range gear box involved, neutral is selected, and the drive control is advanced. The Hydrive recirculates it's oil from start-up and the warming period is less stressfull. It just moans and groans when you wake it up on a cold morning whereas a hydro with heavy oil combined with tight clearances can break drivelines when forced to work in order to warm up in very cold temps.


Bob, thank you for the extremely educational post on the technical differences between Hydros and Hydrive. Your response makes me feel like I am attending a mechanical engineering class at Garden Tractor university. :thumbs:

Thank you

- Mark
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#39 dave8338 OFFLINE  

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Posted March 31, 2012 - 02:07 PM

Bob, thank you for the extremely educational post on the technical differences between Hydros and Hydrive. Your response makes me feel like I am attending a mechanical engineering class at Garden Tractor university. :thumbs:

Thank you

- Mark


You are. :bounce:

What a GREAT fourm ! :smilewink:
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#40 TUDOR OFFLINE  

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Posted March 31, 2012 - 06:05 PM

Due to the clearances involved, gear pumps and motors generally function better with heavier oils than what a hydro requires. They will both work very well with motor oil, but a hydro will protest anything heavier than ATF in very cold (-30* F) temps until the oil is warmed up, and the only way to warm it up, short of an external heat source, is to make it work since it doesn't move oil otherwise, unless there is a hi/lo range gear box involved, neutral is selected, and the drive control is advanced. The Hydrive recirculates it's oil from start-up and the warming period is less stressfull. It just moans and groans when you wake it up on a cold morning whereas a hydro with heavy oil combined with tight clearances can break drivelines when forced to work in order to warm up in very cold temps.


I got a little too focused with the last paragraph of this post. Sorry 'bout that.

While the last paragraph is essentially correct for entry level hydros without charge pumps, the more capable hydros do have charge pumps for ensuring that the hydro has an adequate supply of oil and to operate implement lifts, and it does recirculate the oil to help warm it up. In the vast majority of GTs so equipped, the flow rate is only about a gallon per minute at idle, but it does contribute to warming the oil for the first few minutes without the stress of having to do serious work. By spending that few minutes cycling each lift cylinder a few times, additional heat is added to the system.

The down side, if the system is using heavy oil at frigid temps, is that the charge pump has a drive that is not the most robust and there is a limited possibility of charge pump drive failure. Such a failure will prevent the hydro and the implement lifts from working.

Just something to put in the back of your mind for if a hydro quits working at sub-zero temps.

For either type of drive, it is a good policy to cycle all cylinders full stroke before starting to work at any temperature. With lower temperatures, cycle them 2, 3, or more times, until they move at something closer to normal speed. At sub-zero temps, that first cycle can be painfully slow.

Edited by TUDOR, March 31, 2012 - 06:10 PM.

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