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#196 morepower302 OFFLINE  

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Posted March 14, 2015 - 11:22 PM

 

"Everybody seems to be missing this piece."

 

Hey Doug, how's it going?

 

I wish somebody that has a good one, and the tools to do it, would start re-popping those elusive puppys.  Same goes for the elusive air cleaner.  Or at least a template or measured drawing to work from.

 

P.S.  Was it you doing the plow database thing.  I'll be heading back to Ohio the first part of April and bringing the plow back that is pictured in my post above.  Let me know if you need anything else about it, as I'll have access to it now.

 

Larry W.

 

Guys,

 

The cylinder shroud on my Standard Twin is completely intact.  Now that I think about it, it does make sense that the bottom would rot out where it goes around the cylinders as I could imagine water pooling in there if the tractor would sit out in the weather.  I can't guarantee I'll get to it anytime real soon but I'll see what it would take to get it reproduced.  I know the owner of a local fabrication shop that does some one-off stuff and I'll see if they could reproduce it to the original specifications.  The same goes for the air cleaner as well; this may be a little tricky with the formed wire screen that goes over the packing material.  The idea would be able to reproduce it to original specifications without it costing an arm and leg for the tooling.

 

Kyle 


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#197 mrf1002u OFFLINE  

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Posted March 15, 2015 - 07:33 AM

 

 

"Everybody seems to be missing this piece."

 

Hey Doug, how's it going?

 

I wish somebody that has a good one, and the tools to do it, would start re-popping those elusive puppys.  Same goes for the elusive air cleaner.  Or at least a template or measured drawing to work from.

 

P.S.  Was it you doing the plow database thing.  I'll be heading back to Ohio the first part of April and bringing the plow back that is pictured in my post above.  Let me know if you need anything else about it, as I'll have access to it now.

 

Larry W.

 

Guys,

 

The cylinder shroud on my Standard Twin is completely intact.  Now that I think about it, it does make sense that the bottom would rot out where it goes around the cylinders as I could imagine water pooling in there if the tractor would sit out in the weather.  I can't guarantee I'll get to it anytime real soon but I'll see what it would take to get it reproduced.  I know the owner of a local fabrication shop that does some one-off stuff and I'll see if they could reproduce it to the original specifications.  The same goes for the air cleaner as well; this may be a little tricky with the formed wire screen that goes over the packing material.  The idea would be able to reproduce it to original specifications without it costing an arm and leg for the tooling.

 

Kyle 

 

Kyle,

 

Your efforts would be appreciated by many I imagine. That shroud seems to have met it's doom on MANY tractors, probably by the method you described, or by just being left off when work was done.  As you said, if it can be done for less than an arm or a leg, I think they would be popular.  As mentioned before, even just a very detailed measured drawing would be great, as my two twins have no shroud at all, so the only thing to go by is a mixed bag of pictures.

 

Larry W.


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#198 Huachuca OFFLINE  

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Posted April 10, 2015 - 10:54 AM

I have a '45 and need help attaching the plow to the sulky..any advice and pictures are appreciated..I have a '38 near Philadelphia for sale..

#199 Huachuca OFFLINE  

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Posted April 10, 2015 - 10:55 AM

Also a '40 as is with sulky only near Buffalo NY.

#200 Huachuca OFFLINE  

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Posted April 11, 2015 - 08:27 AM

Need help in attaching the plow to the sulky..

#201 DougT ONLINE  

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Posted April 11, 2015 - 10:20 AM

Need help in attaching the plow to the sulky..

Welcome to the forum. Are you talking the convertible sulky or the regular riding sulky? I will have to check my paper and see if I have anything on it. It may take me a little while.



#202 Huachuca OFFLINE  

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Posted April 13, 2015 - 08:43 AM

DougT, Appreciate it..haven't seen any good pictures of the sulky with utilities attached behind the seat..

#203 DB1 OFFLINE  

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Posted April 19, 2015 - 06:30 PM

Is there any way you can scan this piece and post it? It would be interesting to see what they were offering as new. There were 3 different models of the Viking twin but this date doesn't match any of the known switch over dates. I'm going to side with DB1 on the 34 date for the Twin. That's about a 99.99% certainty. I think you'll find the Viking model B was on the market in the 26-27 range. What is the number on the one you pictured?


< I would think that the standard twins probably came out around the same time as they were both made by Allied Motors.>

This is the second statement I want to comment on. Basically there were 2 business partners. One was named Downey or Downing and the other escapes me now. Walsh was a designer/engineer and was with them from the get go. The 2 partners had some colorful and shrewd business deals.They had a plant that encompassed a whole city block. Since they were surrounded by 4 different streets, they were capable of 4 different addresses. In 1921 they introduce the Kinkaid garden tractor under the American Farm machinery name. This is easily verified. There is a copy of the article in one of Alan King's books. This tractor has become referred to as the first generation. In the 23-24 range the kinkaid engine was change to a headless design. This is referred to as the second generation. The tractor that started this thread shows up in the 25 range and is the first verifiable offering of the Standard Engine Co. This was the second street address. Next Allied Motors shows up with the 2 cyl viking approx 26-27. Now ther are 3 different companies with different addresses but still the same 3 players. Approx 1928 the Kinkaid changes again to the model K This was the first one to have fins in the flywheel and a tin shroud. About this time the Walsh Tractor Co shows up with a 2 wheel traactor using the Kinkaid engine. This gives us 4 companies in one basic location. About this time, the Standard garden tractor is changed to the one piece crankcase/gearbox but with a bigger engine than the Walsh. I'm thinking it was late 33 that there was an announcement in one of the trade mags that claimed the Standard Engine Co had aquired the Walsh Tractor Co and was also introducing the new 2 cyl twin. That would be the era of DB1s piece of literature. As a side note, the Walsh had steel handles starting in 34 but that piece of literature still has the early picture. Also about this time the Viking model changed from the B to F. It used the same engine as the twin but with a different gearbox. I'm not sure on the production range of the single cyl Viking but it used the same shrould design as the model B. and a gearbox closer to the F. In the 37 range the Twin ws equipped with individual steering brakes. The Viking was changed to a model CF and was basically a twin with an enclosed engine house. The enclosed engine house does show up on the later Fs also. the Kinkaid had a couple different models after the K. Next came the L. It was the first to have steel handles instead of wood. After that was the 2 cycle engined Suburbanite. Standard Engine Co also produced their 2 wheel version of that, the Edgeton. Late 30s, early 40s the Monarch was changed to steel handles and a flywheel magneto. Late 50s the company was sold and all tractors after that had the Allied motors tag and were called Viking. They prduced some that had a seperate engine nd belt drive instead of the old all in one design. Early 60s they were gone.

 


This is the second statement I want to comment on. Basically there were 2 business partners. One was named Downey or Downing and the other escapes me now. Walsh was a designer/engineer and was with them from the get go. The 2 partners had some colorful and shrewd business deals.They had a plant that encompassed a whole city block. 

Hi Doug,

Harold R. Downing was his name.


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#204 DougT ONLINE  

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Posted April 19, 2015 - 07:45 PM

Hi Doug,

Harold R. Downing was his name.

thanks Candy. Sometimes CRS really sets in. Did you find the other name?



#205 DB1 OFFLINE  

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Posted April 21, 2015 - 07:26 PM

Wait a minute...Doug.

 

I found another article that says his name was Harold L. Downing. L. or R. who knows?

http://www.gasengine...s.aspx?PageId=1

Where is Mark Outbook when you need him?

Is he still around?  I'm sure you know him Doug.



#206 Huachuca OFFLINE  

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Posted May 08, 2015 - 10:22 AM

Have an intact complete Zenith 9711A carb..Any idea what its worth.
Would like to part with it..

#207 mrf1002u OFFLINE  

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Posted May 08, 2015 - 12:25 PM

Whatever someone will pay, honestly.  Name your price, I might be your guy.  Post a pic.

 

Larry W.



#208 mrf1002u OFFLINE  

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Posted May 08, 2015 - 12:46 PM

Based on the ones I have seen, the main enemies are over-tightened screws resulting in stripping or warping the body.  Also ,stripping out the main needle assembly in the bottom half of the carb.  Floats are not EASILY available, so an intact float is a plus. 

 

Larry W.



#209 jtrojek OFFLINE  

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Posted June 13, 2015 - 06:11 PM

I just picked up this old Standard Twin. It's not much more than a lawn ornament now. The engine is good and seized, as is just about everything else, except the transmission. My plan was to continue to use it as a lawn ornament, I guess. It's pretty far gone. Were the brakes optional on these things? Anything else of interest that I should know? Never owned one myself.

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#210 mrf1002u OFFLINE  

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Posted June 13, 2015 - 08:10 PM

Jtrojek,

 

"Were the brakes optional on these things?"

 

Quote from a document I found:  "Power Turn Steering (after 1937)"

 

I think that means the turning brakes.

 

You would have a lot to do on that one if you decide to not use it as a lawn ornament.

Shroud rusted out at bottom.

Magneto gone.

Engine stuck

Carb any good?

Gas tank dented...rusty inside?

I don't think the angle iron cleats are factory, but the pointy ones are.

 

That being said, it IS a GREAT lawn ornament and NOT impossible to repair, but parts don't grow on trees for these things.  I have been trying to find that shroud over the cylinder heads like yours for several years and I'm surprised it still exists.  LOL

 

Here is the list of random facts I have collected.  Maybe some of it will interest you.  If you decide to part it out, let me know.

 

Larry W.

 

 

 

 

Standard Twin Facts, Rumors, Specs and Stuff

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SPARK PLUGS:   Mine had Champion UD-16 in it originally.  Crossing that to Autolite shows 386 just as the #7, so it was a proper plug.

ALUMINUM HEADS
1942 Chart shows Champion #7  (Lanny B. from Spark Plug Collectors of America says #8 is hotter alternative)
 Modern Autolite Cross chart shows Autolite 386 as Champion #7 equivalent
                                             
CAST IRON HEADS
Champion X  (Not verified as original # yet)
Modern Autolite Cross chart shows Autolite 3095 as champion X or 525 equivalent
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Hard starting has been a common complaint of users of this particular tractor, however, the author has found that with a properly adjusted carburetor and a hot magneto, the tractor will start reliably and easily. As a starting note, the author has found that the tractor starts easiest if the impulse trips just as the crank comes "over the top". If the timing, impulse, and fuel flow are right, it is not necessary to crank the engine quickly to start it.

 

The Twin also offered a way to provide power to implements. A shaft with a 5 inch V-belt pulley extended through the rear of the transmission case. This is the same shaft on which the sliding gear (item 14 in figure Z) rides. A picture of this PTO system is shown in illustration ?. The PTO was controlled by the main clutch, therefore, anytime the tractor was in use, this pulley was turning. It is not known that a guard for this pulley was ever built and/or installed on production machines.

 

A picture of the major internal components is shown in Figure Z. Notice that the pistons both arrive at Top Dead Center (TDC) at the same time. This allows the power stroke on each revolution of the engine, but does make for some vibration, even with the counterweights on the crankshaft.

 

 

COLORS
The Standard Twin was a high gloss medium blue (color id number??) with Farmall red accents. The body of the tractor, including all castings, handle bars, and associated devices were blue. Wheels and gasoline tank were red, and the toolbar carriage was black. Some twins shipped with the gasoline tank mounts black, some appear to have been blue.

My best guess is that the implements were red and black. The plow beam is known to have been red, while the plow share itself it thought to have been black. The mower units were almost surely red, and while unknown, I suspect that the disk gangs were also red originally.

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On one that had original paint it looked like they taped off the gas tank bracket and painted from about 1/2" below the tank red also so the tank brackets are red. Sometimes people painted them orange because a dull orange primer was all that was left on the tractor and they made the mistake thinking they were painted orange or red. Viking Twins are red.
 The tool bars are black an are the cultivating shanks and discs. Sickle bars are red and the plow that came with my original one is green. They are quite colorful. 

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For those who were following my thread before, here is an update and pictures.
I asked and looked all over trying to figure out what valves to use in this engine as the originals were missing out of the junk pile that this tractor was. Note the "before picture" No one seemed to be able to help,  until a fellow at Dave Reed''s show said that 10hp Tecumseh valves would fit. Well, I went to the parts man and asked for a HH-100 exhaust valve. It fits perfectly...then he told me $63 per valve. Well at that, I bought only the retainers for it, as well as the pin and springs. I went home and dug through the Briggs parts pile and found several valves that were the right size but too long. I believe they were Model B valves, or ZZ, not sure, the tags were mixed up. I cut them down to size, matching a surviving original valve, and then drilled the pin hole. The retainers and springs/pin fit it fine. They worked well, and to those of you who may in the same place I was, you can try this yourself, or pay $$$$$. I used electrolysis to save the original carb as well as some of the engine parts that could be saved, the rest was truly junk and had to be replaced with good used parts.
I bought the correct head gaskets at Olson's gasket. I reassembled it with new homemade gaskets, and then test ran it on the workbench with a high tech hose and Coleman gas. ( I bet your workbench looks like mine ) The Mag is a correct Fairbanks, but my bracket was for the Wico, so I had to drill holes to fit, and then go through the pain of timing it by trial and error, as the marks on the back gears are meaningless. The fan shroud is off right now, because it would be very hard to mate the engine to the gearcase with it on. It is very heavy and picking up myself is a chore. The rest of the tractor is stripped down and I will be painting when the weather gets better. I hope my information can help those who may be in a "bind"

Mike
 
http://www.youtube.c...r/standardtwin1

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This is how Standard advertising introduced the Twin to prospective buyers.

The Twin sported an impressive array of advertised features, especially considering they went on sale in 1931:

Two Speed Forward and Reverse Sliding Gear Transmission
Power Turn Steering (after 1937)
Full Enclosed Construction
Magneto
Freee Running Gear Differential
Multiple Disc Clutch
30 inch Steel Wheels with Lugs, and the
Universal Floating Tool Carriage
all for a paltry $465 f.o.b. Minneapolis, Minnesota in 1947 dollars.

Wheels & Brakes
Where the rubber met the road, or ground, as the case may be, the Twin featured two large round spoke wheels, driving either steel lugs or rubber tires. The hubs of the wheels contained set screws which tightened down on a square key to fix them to the axle. A Twin on steel wheels is shown in figure X at right. Either one or two extension rims could be ordered to increase traction, as required. Twins mounted on rubber used 7.5 x 18 tires. Those mounted on steel used 30 x 3 1/2 inch rims with 24 lugs. As mentioned previousely, in 1937, Standard started shipping Twins with a brake on each wheel. These were of the constricting band type, and operated independently with hand levers mounted on the handlebar crossbar.

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Yours should have the Zenith 9711A or 9711B carb, the earlier ones (I think '37 and below) had the Tillotson M-15A carb. I've heard the Briggs Flo-Jet from an 8-10 hp horizontal Briggs engine will substitute in a pinch.
 
 
Andrew, most early Twins used a Tillotson M-15A carb, and the later ones used a Zenith. Severial Zenith carbs were used. They also used a few different mags, Wico LD-32, Wico A32B, Wico X, and Fairbanks Morse FMJ 2A39B. Hope this helps.

http://www.smokstak....hp?i=6293&c=122
 
http://www.smokstak....hp?i=6294&c=122
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I have a 1942 Standard Twin Convertible Garden Tractor that as low compression. I am not sure what the compression should be. I have checked the valves and they seem to be
seating ok, head gaskets are ok. This is a 5hp, 2 cylinder motor.
 
About 60 to 70 PSI would be good, as long as the cylinders are within 10%, there should not be much of a problem.
Andrew
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Looking for wrist pin circlips for a Standard Twin Tractor or some info on a supplier of engine parts that might be able to provide these.
Thanks
 
I would suggest trying briggs and stratton, kohler, or tecumseh circlips. I think that one of those might fit.

Personally I used 10hp tecumseh valves to restore mine, and that info was hard to come by. No one had any suggestions until I head about it at a local show.

Parts are almost impossible to find, and most guys hoard what they have for that reason.

Give it a try

Mike
 
I heard tell that tecumseh 10hp valves will be a good replacement. Anyone else try this?. I would think springs and retainers for them would work fine, if they fit
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Well, here it is, as several suggested I paint it. Dk blue with a red tank and red wheels....Looks a lot like it just came from an Ole' Miss football game!
Does this look right? or does something else need to be painted red?
BTW... color codes are: Dk Blue- DuPont 81501K ...red- DuPont 674
 
If you had the Air Cleaner it would be red too

Looks mighty nice to me!!!

Mike
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The earlier twins pre 37 used a Tillotson MS-15A carb. That carb was also used on Briggs and Stratton engines too.

Yours should have the Zenith 9711A or 9711B carb. I've heard of other zenith variations as well

At least that is what I have seen.
 
In a pinch I have also seen the Briggs flo jet used as well.
 
Can anyone suggest a workable substitute? I am not a purist, but really would like to get this old iron back running again. Tghe rest of the machine is in excellent condition.
 
For short term, I'd use a large briggs flojet off of a 6-8hp engine.

The bolt pattern will be the same, and should flow well enought to run well.
(THIS IS NOT TRUE, THE BOLT PATTERN IS BIGGER AND THE BORE IS BIGGER.

I have seen them on the tractors before. I know they aren't correct, but at least you can enjoy running it.Here is a picture of a Zenith carb, and the M-15A, note they both have the slanted choke casting.... http://www.smokstak....ead.php?t=71228
 
http://www.smokstak....ead.php?t=22918
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Fairbanks Morse type J 2A39B Mag
 
http://www.oldengine...andard_twin.htm
 
http://www.oldengine...hy/registry.htm
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Possible explanation for the different style carb that shows up on some twins with the intake pipe and remote air cleaner:

My parts list has caburetor kit part number C29002 to replace the R20T carburetor. The kit consist of carb, new intake manifold, new intake pipe, new air cleaner and other minor parts. There's an air cleaner assembly listed for the
210A carburetor. No carburetor names are listed. The carbs that LJD has may have been an updated version. Hal

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