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Did A Little Tilling This Afternoon. Have One Issue.


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#1 MNrivergardener OFFLINE  

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Posted March 16, 2012 - 03:46 PM

Hey Guys,

Couldnt ask for a better spring here in Southern MN. Mid 70's I think and sunny. A few weeks ago I re-finished the 54" mowing deck and installed the new blades and a week ago I got a front weight bracket fab'ed up for myself and put one JD 42lb suitcase weight on for now. I'll try and get some pictures tonite.

I did about 40 minutes of tilling today just to try things out, and what I've noticed after about 20-30 minutes of tilling time when I got to the end of my row and hit the Hydraulic lever to lift the tiller up it would come up very Slow, On my last past or so I would reach my arm back and grab the top "post" on the 3 point to help it up. With my assistance it would come up just fine like it was suppose to.

So without knowing a ton about garden tractors and just observing the machine I thought this might be the case of the "Hydraulic lift cylinder " going bad? The part I am talking about would be Under the seat, Lift out the black plastic tray, and it would be clearly visable on the left side of the tractor as if you were sitting in the seat facing foward.

If this is the problem are these commonly avaible, If so where and what could I expect to pay for one?

Also now so I need to use the tiller again before this gets fixed, For the first 15-20 minutes do you think the lift will work normal again untill it gets hot or worn again or is this just a progressing downward lack of lift power from here on out ?


thanks,

Travis

#2 Chuck_050382 OFFLINE  

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Posted March 16, 2012 - 03:51 PM

Is the tiller hydraulic? Sounds to me like the hydraulic system is getting hot.

#3 MNrivergardener OFFLINE  

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Posted March 16, 2012 - 04:11 PM

Chuck,

The tiller is the Snapper Model 48" Shaft driven tiller. One other thing I forgot to mention in my above post was right above this cylinder there are a few metal hydraulic lines I'd assume and at one fitting there is some leaking. it's leaking straight down under the fender past the trans. filter. For these hydraulic lines where is there a so called resivor ? Mabey the lines leaked out enough to loose power to the rear lift? and the lift itself is not bad ?

#4 MNrivergardener OFFLINE  

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Posted March 16, 2012 - 04:58 PM

Ok,

I just went back out and started it back up ( sat for a hour and half) and the rear lift worked like brand new again. So when it get's too hot is when it get's so sluggish. Also re-looked at thoes lines right above the rear hyd. lift and they both go throu the frame and into the trans filter.

Then followed the one line the other way and it led right into the hyd. lever area, and then took a white cloth and wiped a little leaking fluid, so now I answered some questions. The lift levers/ cylinders run off the same trans fluid as the transmission/ and also obiously I know where to check / add trans fluid. So that answers that. and the trans dip stick shows the trans fluid is full.

So hopefully I can just tighten thoes nuts along the inside frame rail a little and stop the seepage. So that just leaves 1 question, Why does the line from the trans filter to the hyd. lever area get so warm and then make the 3 point lift function so poorly?

travis

#5 bgkid2966 OFFLINE  

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Posted March 16, 2012 - 05:05 PM

Sounds like when the fluid gets hot it is leaking past the valve or cylinder. Could possibly be the pump. Does the trans work properly when the lift is working slow?

Geno

#6 Amigatec OFFLINE  

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Posted March 16, 2012 - 05:06 PM

I'll bet the cylinder is bypassing.

Edited by Amigatec, March 16, 2012 - 05:06 PM.


#7 olcowhand ONLINE  

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Posted March 16, 2012 - 07:34 PM

I had a Massey 1650 do this very thing. Worked great cold, but the longer I used it, the slower/weaker it got. In my case, there was a blown o-ring between the body sections of the hydro pump/motor. 5 cent o-ring, a few hours work.

#8 olcowhand ONLINE  

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Posted March 16, 2012 - 07:37 PM

Also, if the cylinder is bypassing enough to cause poor lifting, the lift will go down with a load on it once you release the lift lever back to neutral. If it holds the tiller up after releasing to neutral, then the lift cylinder is not bypassing.

#9 MNrivergardener OFFLINE  

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Posted March 16, 2012 - 08:36 PM

After more investigation after my last post I removed the plastic cover in the middle of the tractor where the shifter is for the " cruse control" and determined that the small seepage was comming from the metal line that goes from the trans. filter directally down to the top the the trans. housing. Without removing the whole rear fenders or having a certain length wrench I couldnt check very to to tighten that nut. From the little grip I had with a pliers it seemed plenty tight. So I'll just have to keep an eye on the trans. dip stick.

So that leads me to belive that that little trans. seepage has nothing to do with the weak rear hyd. lift as I orgionally thought. Also this evening the lift did go slower after a while but nothing like it was this afternoon.

relating to the cylinder by-passing when I lifted the tiller up to move around the tiller held the hight that I raised it to and I hadnt noticed it loosing pressure and getting lower to the ground.

Travis

#10 bgkid2966 OFFLINE  

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Posted March 16, 2012 - 08:56 PM

Could possibly be the pump. Does the trans work properly when the lift is working slow?








Geno

#11 MNrivergardener OFFLINE  

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Posted March 16, 2012 - 09:25 PM

There was no noticeable difference in the trans this afternoon, but then again I wasnt focusing on if there was or not. nothing obious anyways. I'll pay attention to it tommaro morning when I do some more tilling. see what happends.

thanks
travis

#12 ErnRemy OFFLINE  

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Posted March 17, 2012 - 12:30 AM

a couple things you might want to try, first if you are tilling till in lower gear, less stress on the hydro pump for the tranny. Second does your machine still have a fan cooling the tranny, if not you can try adding an oil cooler some where, or change out oil to a heavier grade oil. Is the oil reddish in color, if so that is an atf oil you can try a 30 weight oil if you need.Oh yes if the cylinder was bypassing it would not hold the weight of the tiller. It might creep to the ground if the 3 point has alot of wear but that is not hard to repair, change out some seals and rings.

#13 ncb OFFLINE  

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Posted March 17, 2012 - 01:06 AM

If the line between the filter and tranny case is leaking,is that on the vacuum side of the pump , and if so could it draw enough air into the hydraulic system to cause a problem when he goes to lift the tiller at the end of the row.

#14 mjodrey OFFLINE  

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Posted March 17, 2012 - 04:34 AM

My Massey 1855 deck used to do the same thing( settle down).I rebuilt the cylinder and the problem was gone.

#15 TUDOR OFFLINE  

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Posted March 17, 2012 - 02:27 PM

When the oil gets too warm, it loses the ability to maintain pressure. The MF4850 tiller weighs over 300 lb and just about maxes out the 3PH. Add a little dirt to the tiller and a hot hydraulic system and the 3PH won't come up. I had a similar problem many years ago, and the root cause was damage to the differential causing the case to be chewed up and plugging the filter.

I currently have a similar problem with mine, even after rebuilding the cylinder. My suspicions run to the valve body as the culprit for my problem. I use the 3PH extensively with a backblade for snow removal and there is bound to be some wear in the aluminum valve body in 2500 hours of such use.

Address the leaks. A little judicious snugging up should fix them. If it's due for an oil change, possibly a heavier oil will help. I use Dexron in mine with the only issues being those mentioned above, even with extensive hard work in 80*+ temps. Definitely change the filter, even if it was recently changed, Take the filter apart and inspect for debris. If it's clear, you've eliminated the most expensive problem source and can move on to the time consuming seals and o-rings in the rest of the system.

The filter and valve are the most likely places for answers for the mechanical side and the filter and fan for the heat generation. Get an IR temperature gun and check the hydro the next time the problem happens. Normal is 140-160*, high, but acceptable, is 170-190*, over 200, add an oil cooler to the valve return line, and take a hard look for why the temp is getting up there. It shouldn't, except under extreme circumstances. Tilling a garden in 70* weather is not extreme.

I very much doubt that either a small drip at the suction line or the hydro itself is at fault.
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